“Thessaloniki is unique and exemplary. Unique for several reasons, the most obvious of which is the extraordinary presence of the Jewish community over so many centuries. Exemplary, because in its history, especially over the last century and a half, you can see how many cities in Eastern Europe and the Middle East have been subjected to massive population movements, both forced and involuntary. When the Holocaust happened, many – at that time – understood it in terms of other displacements known to them from history, which go back to the 15th century, but go back to the pogroms of the late 19th century and include, of course, the more recent experience of the destruction of Asia Minor. And in the memory of the living there was already a forced movement – I mean the movement of the Muslims of Thessaloniki between 1912 and 1923 – which we hardly talk about even now. I want to believe that the new generations won’t feel like they have to take a stand like the old ones did, and will find a way to look across borders and borders at how the suffering of one community has left its mark on another.”

This is what Thessaloniki means to the British historian and writer Mark Mazauer, who, through his research and his bibliography, shed light on the history of the city and the entire region, especially the problem of the Jews in the dark Europe of the 20th century. About this city, which is still at the center of his scientific interests, he told “K” a few hours before leaving New York with the report “80 years later: remembering Thessaloniki in 1943”, as an official guest of the Israeli community of Thessaloniki on event dedicated to the National Day of Remembrance of the Greek Jewish Martyrs and Heroes of the Holocaust.

It has been 17 years since the publication in Greek of his book Thessaloniki: City of Ghosts (Alexandria Publishing House), which was a breakthrough in the study of his history, especially in relation to the destruction of the Jewish community. “How enlightened is the 20th century from the beginning of its research to the present day? Emerging new evidence replaces his original picture, or the area remains unexplored,” we asked a Columbia University history professor.

“The important thing is that, after the pioneering work of men like Rena Molho and Rica Benveniste, two new generations of historians, mostly Greeks, worked with great skill in this field, so that today we know much more about the history of the Jews of Greece, as well as about their fate during the years of occupation, more than we ever knew. This is a remarkable scientific achievement, based on two things: the enthusiasm and passion for uncovering the country’s past in its forgotten aspects, and the work of archivists and librarians in registering and providing what turned out to be a very rich set of sources. I would say that we know much more about how the Jewish community lived after the annexation of Thessaloniki to the Greek body (1912), and we can better judge the very different social and political conditions that characterized the various communities throughout the country.

We also know much more about the cooperation of donors with the Germans and about the resistance and actions of many Greeks who offered help to their fellow Jews. We also know a lot about the important issue of German-Italian relations in Greece. On the other hand, we still know little about the relations of the collaborating Greek governments with the Germans in Athens and are constantly learning more about the local authorities and their behavior. But there is always something to explore.”

– I still read what is produced here, because the quality of science is so high and because I finally get answers to many questions that could only be speculated about before. It is also worth noting that the excellent study of the urban and architectural history of Thessaloniki is of interest because this field allows historians to explore the city as a whole.

We are looking for a way of commemoration that will unite in one context the experience of the refugees from Pontus and Asia Minor and the Jews of Thessaloniki.

– There is no doubt that the general atmosphere today is very different from what it was in the past. Some of this is likely due to the end of the Cold War and generational change. Much of Thessaloniki is undoubtedly due to the visionary leadership of Mayor Giannis Boutaris. But I think it continues now, because attitudes have changed radically, not only in the city, but on a wider scale. We now have films about the Holocaust in Greece, societies for the study of Greek Jewry, plays and novels, and generally a much broader understanding of what the history of modern Greece entails. This does not mean that there is no resistance, racism and vandalism, and it cannot be said that the old rivalry has been completely neutralized. But I think there is still a lot to be done. I think, for example, that we are still looking for a way to remember that will bring together in the same context the experiences of the refugees from Pontus and Asia Minor and the Jews of Thessaloniki. Historians are at the forefront of this process – and school teachers too – but controversy over memorial sites like Liberty Square and vandalism at the Jewish memorial on the AUTH campus suggest the city is still grappling with these issues.

– The main thing is to do it correctly and with vision. There are sixteen or more Holocaust museums in the US alone, and more than thirty around the world. Naturally, they vary greatly in quality. And elsewhere we see that a bad museum is often worse than none. On the other hand, if the museum is done correctly, the benefits both for the city and for the whole country will be enormous. Its function will highlight at the international level not only the important history that remains relatively unknown abroad, but also the scientific and educational work of the country. At the same time, it will enrich the city with a cultural center that, through its active presence, will contribute to the formation of the collective memory of its inhabitants.

“I’m afraid it has always been unlikely that a knowledge of History would eliminate racism or the suffering of war. Both have been with us too long to dissolve so easily. I think, however, that the wider public awareness of the extent of the World War II genocide was helpful. There is, especially among the younger generation, a willingness to talk about racism that was not so evident half a century or more ago. And I believe that one of the reasons for the surprising unanimity in the public condemnation of the Russian invasion of Ukraine has to do with our knowledge of the war and the growing feeling that the invasion, with Russia’s apparent efforts to erase all traces of the Ukrainian nation and culture, was a kind of throwback to the past, which, as we hoped, already passed.

In this sense, I would say that the current struggle in Ukraine is both a struggle for historical memory and lessons in the fight against fascism and Nazism. Many point out that there is a deep and tragic irony that it is the Russians, who suffered so much at the hands of the Germans eighty years ago, who today seem to be the ones whose troops were ordered to shoot civilians indiscriminately. , loot museums and galleries and pursue a kind of scorched earth policy. The end of empires, which began in Greece two centuries ago and continued with notable bloody results into the twentieth century, now appears to be entering its final phase with the fall of the Soviet Union on the Black Sea coast.